E36 M3 Motor Conversion

[rich]

I'm contemplating doing the E36 M3 motor conversion as apposed to a rebuild, what are your thoughts for or against this procedure.

Rich

[S14PWR]

GO WITH THE 2.5 AND KEEP IT A 4CYL. TRUST ME...AND IF YOU DO DO THE SWAP...DONT COME BACK HERE SINCE THIS WEB SITE IS FOR S14 ENGINES...J/K..LOL

[rich]

Up to this point, I have not decided one way or the other. To your
comment of not coming back if I do is very childish, yes! the
site is S14.NET, but the content does not only speak to the E30 M3 engine.

I knew this subject would bring up a very interesting debate,
is an E30 M3 still an M3 with a E36 M3 motor??? Is John Doe
still John Doe with a heart transplant Hmmmmmmm????

Lets keep the thread civil PLEASE...

Rich

[jimmy p.]

I have been pretty vocal on this subject on pretty much any list they discuss E30 M3s, but since it really rattles my cage, I'll throw my .02 in here as well (it'll probably be more like $5).

My biggest problem is WHY do this to a low volume, limited production factory homologation special?
Cheap Horsepower, actually cheap TORQUE???
If you wanted cheap torque you picked the wrong car.
That is what pisses me off most about these engine conversions,,, guys buy these cars KNOWING its a high revving 4 cylinder with little torque, then complain about the lack of torque and want to put in a 6 cylinder,,, why not just buy a e30 325 or an e36 325, 328 or M3.

If its just the looks you like, put a wide body kit on a 325,,, because once you yank the S14 it ceases to be an e30 M3,,, its what was formerly an E30 M3 with a 6 cylinder.

I will ask you the same question I ask everyone contemplating this swap.
Would you pull the engine and replace it with something else completely different on the following cars:
2002 Turbo
3.0 CSL
M6
M5
Ferrari F40
Porsche RS America
I'm guessin probably not.

These cars with the exception of the M5 have all reached very expensive levels of collectability. Just because the E30 M3 has not yet reached it's financial potential as a collectable does not make it any more worthy of being butchered by umpteen half assed, hair brained conversions to bigger motors because the S14 doesn't have enough torque or horsepower.
A cheap entry price does not make it any less wrong to butcher a low volume factory special, arguably the most famous factory hot rod BMW has ever built.
Other than the 3.0CSL its the single most purpose minded example of a factory race car for the street BMW has ever done.
All the other M cars combined pale in comparison cumulatively to the M3s race history as a four cylinder. BMW managed to whip the world with it as a 2.3 litre 4 cylinder,,, (keep in mind the car was waaaay more succesful as a 2.3 than it ever was as a 2.5) but a bunch on Americans all want 6 clyinders in their M3s.
I wonder why you dont see the British & Euro guys going into this engine converssion fad,,, hmmm,,, maybe they just get it.

Whats more,,, the car just doesn't need it, it's fantastic the way it is. There are LOADS of upgrade parts for the S14 from mild to wild. I see your from NJ, a pretty well known club racer from NJ used to WIN in SCCA's ITE class here in the Northeast with a 2.3 litre E30M3, in case you do not know, that class is infested with Corvettes and 911s.
Hell it is the winnigest touring car in the history of touring car racing. I'd say there is a pretty healthy amount of available race parts.

If the CHARACTERISTIC of the motor is what you dont like,,, then your driving the wrong car.
If its CHEAP tourque you want, then your driving the wrong car.
An M3 without an S14 is no longer an M3 its a 325 with a factory widebody kit.

If its a torque monster you want, save the money buying a real M3, then buy a cheap 325 shell, buy your E36 tractor motor, buy a widebody kit and a big brake kit,,, and you will save money over using a real M3 as a donor car. There are millions of run of the mill E30s for sale in every classifieds in the USA cheap with NO collectability at all.

BMW has built millions of 6 cylinder cars, there is no need to put one in an E30 M3, the car you want is already out there.

Besides,,, there is little more gratifying than kicking the ass of a car with 2 (or more) cylinders on a race track with sometimes over a hundred more HP than you have with a little 2.3 four cylinder.

If you do not track the car and its the Fast & Furious guys you are looking to street race on weekends,,, then again,,, you are just driving the wrong car,,, sell it to someone who appreciates it for what it is and buy/ build a 6 - 8 cylinder car.

Cars are like tools, use the right tool for the right job. You wouldn't try to pull out a nail with a scalpel,,, and you hopefully wouldn't attempt surgey with a hammer.

JMHO
Jimmy P
(3 x e30 M3 all with just 4 cylinders each)

[jimmy p.]

Rich,
I know you are only "contemplating" a swap.
My post was my feelings on the subject (you asked)...

It was not meant as an assault on you, but more or less my thoughts on them & the people who do them in general.

Cheers
jimmy p.
(3 x e30 M3 all STILL with just four cylinders each)

[Eric]

what if we kept the S14, but added a small fan to cram more air in there?

[Magnus]

It's a personal choice. You just have to figure out what is important to YOU. Either the history and preservation, or a personal need to have a cutom untraditional modded car.

The Inline 6 is smooth and torquie monster, while a good 2.5L 4 cylinder is lighter, high revving and a perfect historic evolution of the E30. Do you love the styling so much that you would swap an engine rather than exchange for an E36?

You choose. Good Luck!

[rich]

Originally posted by jimmy p.
Rich,
I know you are only "contemplating" a swap.
My post was my feelings on the subject (you asked)...

It was not meant as an assault on you, but more or less my thoughts on them & the people who do them in general.

Cheers
jimmy p.
(3 x e30 M3 all STILL with just four cylinders each)

I'm not taking your respones or anyone's as an insult, I know how sensitive and polarizing this topic is, that's why I brought it up.

So lets keep the discussion open and civil, and chime in on how you feel about conversions.


Rich

[Jim Bo]

Hi Rich,

Having never driven an E30 M3 with anything other than an S14 powerplant, I can only offer my subjective feelings on the whole issue;

The E30 M3 is one of the most beautiully balanced cars I have ever driven, and I love the fact that it's a little grumpy round town, and needs to be revved hard to really go - it just adds to the "racecar on the street" feel. I bought my car knowing all of the above, and whenever I feel that I'd like more power or torque, I take the M for a thrash down some good roads, usually with the windows down (aahhhhh - an S14 bouncing of the rev limiter is music to my ears). I come home thinking a) that my car is fast enough when it counts, b) Damn! I'm a good driver (the car is so flattering), and that c) I will never knowingly alter the cars characterisitcs in any significant way through modifications - minor tweaks, yes - engine swaps, no!

I guess you should talk to some of the guys who have already done the swap, and that ultimately it depends on how you use the car. I think that if/when I want more power/torque out of my car I'll buy something else - and I'd like to think that the M will then be sold to a like minded enthusiast to enjoy!

[rich]

but a bunch of Americans all want 6 clyinders in their M3s.
I wonder why you dont see the British & Euro guys going into this engine converssion fad,,, hmmm,,, maybe they just get it.


To your comment regarding British and Euro guys, I am British and from what I know and have seen, the first conversions where done in Europe, believe it or not there are more conversions done in Europe than the US, you think the US is bad. At least most US guys go for an E36 M3 motor, In Europe I've seen everything from a 4 cyl 232 to E28 motor swaps. So the idea of British/Euro guys having more sense of history, not true.

Rich
88 M3
New Jersey (By the way of Bristol England)

[rich]

Originally posted by Jim Bo
Hi Rich,

Having never driven an E30 M3 with anything other than an S14 powerplant, I can only offer my subjective feelings on the whole issue;

The E30 M3 is one of the most beautiully balanced cars I have ever driven, and I love the fact that it's a little grumpy round town, and needs to be revved hard to really go - it just adds to the "racecar on the street" feel. I bought my car knowing all of the above, and whenever I feel that I'd like more power or torque, I take the M for a thrash down some good roads, usually with the windows down (aahhhhh - an S14 bouncing of the rev limiter is music to my ears). I come home thinking a) that my car is fast enough when it counts, b) Damn! I'm a good driver (the car is so flattering), and that c) I will never knowingly alter the cars characterisitcs in any significant way through modifications - minor tweaks, yes - engine swaps, no!

I guess you should talk to some of the guys who have already done the swap, and that ultimately it depends on how you use the car. I think that if/when I want more power/torque out of my car I'll buy something else - and I'd like to think that the M will then be sold to a like minded enthusiast to enjoy!

Hey Jim,

I full well knew the characteristics of the E30 M3, that's why I bought it, I'm being the protagonist in the thread to open up the discussion. I've driven everything from Cosworths to Porsche's, and many BMW models, and my favorite car is still the E30 M3

Rich

[Jim Bo]

Rich,

How do the costs stack up - S14 rebuild vs transplant?

As for going through the characterisitcs of the S14, I wasn't trying to teach you how to suck eggs:p , just explaining the qualities I thought were important in the E30 M3... And from your original post, you're doing a bit more than being a protagonist to stir up debate, aren't you? You said you're contemplating making the swap, right?

[rich]

Yes! I've contemplated the conversion, and have done research to find out how much it cost compared to a rebuild. As far as being a protagonist in the discussion, I belong to a number of SIG's and have been for a while, so I know how heated this discussion can become. Knowing this I still put it out there knowing full well that I would get kicked and stepped on.

Rich:D

[Jim Bo]

Originally posted by rich
Yes! I've contemplated the conversion, and have done research to find out how much it cost compared to a rebuild. Rich:D

And how do the numbers compare?

You're right, some puritan extremists will get very aggressive when this conversion is discussed - I don't really care THAT much (more annoyed when people put ///M3 badges on other BMWs !!), just putting my $0.02 in!

[rich]

Through my research I've seen 2.3 rebuilds ranging from 5.5-6.5K, 2.5 rebuilds from 6-8.5K and conversions from 5-8K. There's a place in Brooklyn that will do the conversion drive in drive out for 5.5K they purchase the engine do all the fabrication and warranty.

Rich