suggestions for proper upgrade path for high altitude..

[stevesingo]

Going back to your original point... which I believe is not the best idea.

Methanol injection may help and is relatively cheap.

Care to calculate how much it will help.

I'll start you off...

I'll use SI units as that seems to be your preference.


If we have 30degC air temp at the inlet valve

30degC, 30%humidity at seal level=1.155kg/m3

30degC, 30% humidity at 1890M=0.918kg/m3

Diff is 19.5%

If we cool the air to 10degC we can achieve air density of 0.987kg/m3. We are still 15% down. How much water will that take? How much ethanol will that take?

For the sake of your calculations lets say our 2302cm3 engine is running at 100% VE at 6000rpm. That is then, 2.302lt of air every cycle of which there are 3000per/min or 6906lt/min

I suspect you will type another load of pointless BS inferring that this is incorrect, because that would be easier than doing the math. So be it.


Josh,

Apologies for hijacking. Just don't want to see folks wasting money. Which ever way you go, it will cost enough.

You plan of a turbo 2.5 is a good idea, if expensive. There are guys on here with 300+RWHP turbo S14s (OZM3 is a good one) on low boost pressure (9psi). Incidentally, I don't recall any using H2O/Meth.

best of luck

Steve

[///schwartzman]

I won't dignify your "BS" response with any more replies... I own a couple turbo cars currently.


Josh if you decide to turbo your S14 and need real world help I and a few others here have done it. Coming from Subies and NASOIC forums I won't drag out the banter of the benefits of adjuncts, go f/i!

[spidy512]

morning

interesting subject brought up...no worries on hijacking....

And thanks to those offering advice on turbos. i have learned quite a bit on the subaru and audi side when it comes to proper set up of a custom turbo system. i am leaning towards getting a stand alone asap, and at least start the process of getting the car wired/setup. the idea of "staging" my own path sounds fun, although challenging on this motor. I have a ton of reading to do in the turbo forum, as the options seem endless depending on the desired results. yikes. i also have a ton research to do in regards to stand alone EMS.....

and moving further down the hill would cost me WAY more than a turbo...

love this forum. thanks again for the help!!

josh

[Brendan]

As far as standalones go, there are (relatively) inexpensive DIY at one end (MS), all the way through to pro-level systems with a drop in harness on the other for many 10's of thousands (Motec, Pectel with a pro-built harness) as well as a ton of systems in between.

Depends what you're looking for, but if you want to push the easy button, call Neel at Apex Speed Tech and ask him about a Vipec V44 with a harness. I'd guess 5k as a ballpark complete, but could be off.

Figure you need to add tuning costs regardless of the system you choose.

[spidy512]

thanks Brendan, i am surfing the Vipec web page now....

funny. i just text my buddy (the one above who is my tuner buddy) what ems he likes the best. he is a massive fan of Vipec. nice call...

josh

[Eric]

Eric,

My bet is that it is about 20% less powerful on a warm CS than to was on a cool Texan morning. It is inescapable!
get your point
When in Nepal I was a good 50% less powerful at 20k ft!

I don't get your point? No one is arguing the fact. We can accept it or we can compensate for it.

Steve

Lucky you for having an E28 M5. http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...?storyId=25741

Hi Steve,

I don't think I was disagreeing with you, more just rambling at 0430 with my own personal experiences. Sometimes people might take for granted that 20% of extra oxygen, and I was just pointing out how much I felt the difference in the car between the two climates.

Heck, I run 1.5 miles in 11minutes flat in texas, 11:30 here at colorado springs (my own engine suffers too!), and still a year later I get winded when climbing the 6 flights of stairs to my office!

[stevesingo]

Eric,

You are not doing too bad in only loosing 20secs per mile.

Steve

[nrubenstein]

Going to 2.5L for boost is actually explicitly a BAD idea. You will lose both block strength AND you will have very narrow walls between the cylinders, which will make head gasket failures a lot more likely.

[BBS16]

Has there been any good results using a supercharger on an s14?

[spidy512]

Nrubenstein - I already thought about that and agree that staying 2.3 might be a better call.

Bbs16 - in the forced induction section there is a long thread about rms fabing a sc for a dude in australia. Nothing else I know of...

Josh

[inastrangeland]

Having lived in the Denver area for over 10 years, you either accept the fact that your car will make less HP or spend a lot of money trying to make it up. The good news is that everyone has the same problem at this altitude. Our shop tunes and modifies just about every make a model car you can name. Depending on the heat and humidity you lose about 20-24% in HP at this altitude. If you want the same HP, you will need to add that amount to get back to what you had at sea level.

One of my cars has a stock 2.3 with .030 CP pistons and 11:1 compression. It also has the miller MAF setup which compensates for altitude changes. The adjusted HP (sea level) is 177rwhp and uncorrected is 140rwhp. That's about 15rwhp less than a stock 2.3 at sea level. You can make up the difference in an N/A motor pretty easily by head porting, bigger cams, and free flowing exhaust. That would put you at 200-210 corrected rwhp. This gives you back the power you lost moving up here and will also provide a nice improvement whenever you go to sea level.

If your goal is to go beyond that, the sky and your wallet is the limit. My 2.5 build put down 238 corrected rwhp and 190 uncorrected. That is a significant improvement over a stock 2.3 even uncorrected. And the motor was very streetable, but it will cost quite a bit more than a 2.3 build.

We are also developing a standalone setup for the S14 that uses a very common ECU which has significant capabilities beyond the stock ECU including turbo and high HP NA mods.

Our shop is in Parker CO.

[spidy512]

hey all again,

i wanted to dig this up as i now know i have a turner 2.3 chip. is this a bad thing at altitude? the car feels very strong with no detonation. i can feel the timing being pulled on hotter days, and the idle and off idle AFR seem very rich to me.

just thought i'd ask since someone suggested ditching the chip in the case it was not made for altitude. i know the JC/Turner chips are aggressively timed.

thanks for the help!

josh

ps saving me pennies for a stand alone, as i think it is the best solution to go to a MAF in the short term....

[Brendan]

the car feels very strong with no detonation. i can feel the timing being pulled on hotter days,

You may have no detonation, but you should know that the S14 is not an engine where it's easy to tell. By the time you hear it, you're pretty much screwed. I lost an engine this way and I didn't hear a damn thing (and the car was running awesome) right up until it sounded like a rod was going to come through the side of the block...

Regarding timing being pulled, intake air temp is one of the factors the stock chip uses to pull timing. This is probably unchanged for your chip.

Not sure of how much the TMS chip changes timing. Is it the TMS "Race" chip? Or other? I know the race version required High Octane and would certainly cause you problems.

[spidy512]

i believe it is the standard, not race chip. and thanks for the heads up on the detonation. i am parking the car for now until i decide that this chip is safe up here. I will contact turner directly in the next few days.

and the air temp makes sense, as it has been hot here during the afternoons. feels much more sluggish in the middle of the day vs the evening/morning. it has also started to reach low 30's up here, which is great for power in the AM.

i continue to think a stand alone sooner than later might be a good idea. just so i know i have the proper tune for altitude.

thanks again for the help. love this community...

josh

[spidy512]

ok. called turner. they def recommend NOT running this chip at altitude. soooo, the car is officially OS until i can get a stand alone or miller maf or a stock chip in this thing. glad i called...

josh